Meeting Joy Kathurima

Sep 21, 2021

Meet Joy Kathurima. A lady lawyer who dives deep into her pop culture, gives back to the rural community, and can help with your love life! Find out how Joy’s crazy life experience can help you in your divorce case!


Susan Reff: On today’s podcast. We have Joy Kathurima here, and Joy is one of our associate attorneys. We’re going to be learning all about joy and her background and what makes her tick and her interests in all the cool things that make up joy. So welcome,

Joy Kathurima: Joy. Thank you.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Hello.

Susan Reff: Tracy’s here, too. So it’s a it’s the three of us today.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Hey, everyone. I just spent a week in Yellowstone. Lesson learned is you cannot fly with bear spray to

Susan Reff: What, like like your pepper spray bear spray.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So when we got there, we bought bear spray thinking, I don’t know why. We must have thought we were going to go hiking in the backwoods and see a bear, which clearly didn’t happen. We did see a bear from the car, so we didn’t need the bear spray. And then we never opened the bear spray and it was like forty dollars. And so we go to fly and it’s in our checked luggage. And the gal says, Do you have any bear spray or lithium batteries and whatever else she lists off? And we said, Yeah, actually, we have bear spray and she goes, OK, you can’t fly with that. I said, Really, what would happen? Would it like blow up? And then it was like, Oh crap, I said, blow up a bomb, you know, all this stuff, and I shouldn’t have said that. And she says if it opens or whatever, it can blind the captain. And I was like, Oh Jesus, we don’t want that. Take it, take it. And then my husband, of course, was like, Oh my God, that was 40 dollars. And I was like, Tom, we don’t need the bear spray. So that happened yesterday

Joy Kathurima: When we were in Montana in June. We also got bear spray because we also thought we would see a bear, and we also only saw one from the car. But we just left ours in the Airbnb because we’re like, there’s no bears in Nebraska for us to drive it all the way back

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Here, right? Oh, you were driving, but we drove.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, we don’t have to worry about flying.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah. So bear spray gets left at airports,

Susan Reff: But so is it like, does it look like a pepper spray? Little can. Or what’s it like?

Tracy Hightower-Henne: It looks like a big bug spray can like it’s big. It’s not just a little pepper spray because it goes far.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, it’s almost like a fire extinguisher for bears.

Susan Reff: So when you’re hiking, you got to have like a big backpack for your bear spray. I mean, it’s like a

Joy Kathurima: Water bottle size. Yeah, you can put it on like a belt hook or something, depending on how you hike.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I don’t know. You’d want to have it easily accessible.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, yeah. Because they say you’re supposed to make go hiking with lots of people or at least more than just you. So that way, the conversation that you’re having should be able to keep bears at bay otherwise.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So you don’t

Joy Kathurima: Startle that, so you don’t startle them. Yeah, because that’s what gets them spooked. And then they’re like,

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, it’s happening and you’re supposed to like sing songs as you’re hiking. And there’s none of that happened on my trip. So we were good.

Susan Reff: Wow, that is not what I was thinking I would hear about today. Bear spray. So now I’m educated. Do not fly with bear spray.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Don’t blind the captain. I was like, How is it getting from my bag to the captain? And she’s like, Yo blind, everyone. But we only care about the captain, and I was like, Oh, that’s fair.

Susan Reff: Yeah, she was protecting you from yourself.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, that’s right. Really? Right?

Susan Reff: Hmm. That is interesting.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So, Joey, I’ve heard a lot about you already, and I’m so excited to like hear this all in one podcast. So one of the things that I think is so interesting about people is what did you want to be when you grow up? And if you know about Susan and I, it was the same thing. So tell us about you.

Joy Kathurima: That’s a great question. I think that when I was younger, I wanted to be a doctor because I think everyone wants to be a doctor because it’s like, sounds cool. I had no idea what a doctor does it just sound like? Yeah, I’m going to be a doctor, just a general, just as well. I wanted to be a pediatrician because I like kids and I was like, Oh, that’d be so cool to be able to help and heal kids. And this was when, like growing up in like. Mid late nineties, you know, when, like The Cosby Show was on and like, you saw it, you never saw him actually take care of kids, but he said he was a pediatrician. I was like, That’s pretty cool. Or, you know, so stuff like that, that’s what I really wanted to be. And then in high school, I did not love my science classes as much as I thought I would.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: What about math? Were you good at math?

Joy Kathurima: I was OK at math. I had some really good math teachers who made me like math more than I thought I would. I was good at it in the sense that I was in advanced math, but I never loved it. And then I had some really great math teachers. So it was like, Oh yeah, I actually really like this, but I not enough to, like, pursue any part of it, any career that had to utilize a lot of it.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, usually the good indication when a child doesn’t like or isn’t good at math is they could be a lawyer someday. Yeah.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah. I loved reading. I read a lot. My sister and I were like avid readers, so my family and I, we immigrated to the U.S. in nineteen ninety seven from Kenya, and my dad was in a master’s program and Southern Methodist University in Dallas. And so and then my mom was working, and so my sister and I were kind of latchkey kids before which honestly, I just heard learned what the phrase latchkey kids means. And now I’m like, Yeah, we were latchkey kids.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So the word latchkey makes me think of the word tchotchke, which is very hard to spell. So can you spell Lackey Latchkey Latchkey?

Joy Kathurima: I think it’s just a TCHC. Why I would think, Oh, latchkey black.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, I might have gotten that

Joy Kathurima: Very different because there’s like silent tease and stuff.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: There’s TS and D’s and Morty’s and a K.

Joy Kathurima: I think, yeah, I think latchkey is just as

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Like it’s like Latch

Joy Kathurima: Key. Yeah. So we read a lot. We were very avid readers, and so maybe that’s where I wanted to be. I don’t think law was in my mind until college, probably.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So then what changed in college?

Joy Kathurima: So I went to you and offer my undergrad here in Omaha, and I was on the speech team and I loved that. I did debate in high school and I loved that. And you know how people are like, if you like to argue you’d make a good lawyer and I don’t think that’s necessarily true. But I was doing a lot of pre law things, so I was like on a pre-law track. I took a lot of poly sci classes, sociology classes, so it felt like the next step. And then I took the LSAT, my senior year of college. I hated my score. I was so sad. I was like, I’m never going to get into law school with this score. So I was like, Cool, I’m not going. I literally was like, OK, I’m not going. And I luckily didn’t have any student loans, so I was like, OK, so I’m just going to work, and that’s what I did.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: And tell us about that job. I’m so excited.

Joy Kathurima: So I worked a couple of different jobs in between the time and when I graduated and went to law school. So when I worked as a counselor for kids with addiction and behavioral health issues at a group home and then that job, it was great. The kids were wild, fascinating kids. And then I think my schedule got changed and I didn’t like working weekends. So I was like, OK, I need a different job. I need. I was like, I was trying to get to an eight to five. That was my

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Don’t be a lawyer.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, I was like, I was I didn’t want to work weekends. And so my sister had just gotten hired as a matchmaker, and she’s like, Yeah, you should come. And I was like, OK. And so she and I worked together for almost a year at this matchmaking company, like we worked in customer service together, and it was fascinating. It was not what I expected. I think that I was so young at the time that I really, truly didn’t realize how lonely people get and how much people are willing to pay money to not be lonely. A lot of a lot of money, a lot of money. It was who

Susan Reff: Was this like a face to face matchmaking company or online?

Joy Kathurima: Yeah. Ok. So the way it worked is that there was salespeople, so there were salespeople located in the different places. So I specifically worked for Louisiana singles. So there were salespeople who are located in like Metairie, Baton Rouge and New Orleans who were selling the packages. And then the people would be entered into the database and then I would be matching them. So I literally from Omaha, from Omaha.

Susan Reff: Oh, you were like the person that like would like, look at the profile.

Joy Kathurima: Yes. Yes, I’d look at the profile. There was like questions that they had to answer and then I’d see like, compare be like, OK, is this person within their age range? Is this person? Location wise, where are they looking to see if they answered the same types of things? And then I would like send out the match, and it was the way that they worked. The company was like, it was like a blind map, a blind match, so you didn’t get a photo or anything. And then they’d have to like, go on a date and usually they’d report back and let us know how it went. And it was a wild ride because there are some people, a lot of the. People who were in the system were like older or either widowed or divorces like sixties, fifties or sixties, couple older folks, and there was some of them who you would match them and they’d immediately ask to exchange photos and then I would always get a call like joy, how dare you match me with this person? Do you think I’m ugly and I’m like, I dare you. I don’t know what you want me to tell me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there would be some upside there like joy. I need to meet with you. So you know how. I just don’t think that these photos that you guys have are really doing me justice. You have to just meet me, and I’d be like, Well, you want to fly me down? I’m I’m happy to come to New Orleans and eat some good food. I was like, Otherwise, you’ve got to come to Omaha, Nebraska, and they’re like, Oh, well, I don’t think that’s possible. And I’m like, OK. But it was they would ruin their own dates because they’d get into topics on first dates that we’d have to coach them. It was literally like a whole process. Some of these folks hadn’t dated for, like 20, 30 years.

Susan Reff: Wait, and there’s also a reason they’re single. Probably.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, they would. They would trauma dump on their first date. They would talk about all those topics that are told not to talk about, like religion, politics, all this type of stuff. And they’d be like, I just don’t know where it went wrong and I’m just listening. I’m like, I can tell you six different places that it went wrong.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So this was good training for your career as a divorce lawyer.

Susan Reff: This is this is awesome. This path.

Joy Kathurima: It’s a precursor. I was trying to make love matches and now I break up. Well, I’m not breaking them up, but that’s helping people remove themselves from their former love match.

Susan Reff: What if you were doing the divorce of someone that you matched?

Joy Kathurima: Well, I never matched anyone in Nebraska, but that would be wild if I was, oh god, I would feel so bad. Somehow, I honestly wouldn’t be my fault.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I don’t. I just always think about doing a matchmaking service with the clients that we divorce. But the problem may be the best one. Yeah. All right. Here’s our post care decree post decree care package. Meet with joy and she’ll set you up. But the problem is is that most of our divorce clients are already dating someone before their divorce is done or before they even come to,

Susan Reff: Oh, they’re not there. They are so moved on.

Joy Kathurima: Some people bounce right back into that dating market, which I mean, it’s fair if you’ve been in a 15 year marriage or you were unhappy, you’re like, I got to get here. Yeah, I was like, I got to get out of here and meet who’s out there. And maybe there’s way better. There usually is way better people. So.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So why ultimately did you go to law school? Then after the matchmaking, you saw that that wasn’t where it was.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, matchmaking wasn’t going to be my long term career. So it was actually on a trip to one of my best friend’s wedding in South Dakota. My sister and I were driving there. She was getting married in Custer, South Dakota, on Valentine’s Day, and my sister, I was like trying to figure out, I’m like, I don’t know what I need to do next. I’m like, I can’t do this for the rest of my life. I don’t know what my career is going to be. And so I was like, I mean, I need to go to grad school, and I was really trying to figure out whether I was going to go to law school or go to do higher ed. I had had I had done a lot of different leadership positions in college that did a lot of higher ed and academic success. And I loved it. I loved working with college students. It was just so interesting. So I was really trying to figure out what would be the best avenue. And like during that trip, my sister and I were just talking about, I’m like, Well, I think if I got a law degree, it might be a little bit more useful in the sense that if I really didn’t want to practice law, I could use that to kind of put myself in a position to work in higher ED in some way. So that’s where it kind of went. I initially thought about immigration law because my family and I were immigrants. I’d seen firsthand kind of the process of what family based immigration can look like. So that had been the first thing. So it ended up being that’s when I was like, OK, I got to start studying for the LSAT again and do all of that. So it. And then it just kind of happened. I got into school and went from there.

All: Awesome.

Susan Reff: How much time did you take off between

Joy Kathurima: College and law school? I took two years off. Yeah, to two years. It felt like a lot longer. But all that matchmaking? It was, yeah, it was a time. There was a lot of experiences had with that.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So then you went to law school and what was your first job after law school?

Joy Kathurima: Yeah. So I went to law school in Lincoln and then after law school, I went back to my law school and worked in admissions. So I worked as a recruiter for students. So I was traveling a lot. That would have been the fall of 2019.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Did you ever go to New Orleans? No, I didn’t. I, ma’am, I’m what you want to meet me now. Here I

Joy Kathurima: Am. I should have. There was some of my some of those customers I had through there. I really, really liked them, and I was like, I would absolutely have met up with them. They would have been a good time. But no, I ended up. I went to Atlanta, I went to L.A., went to Wisconsin, went to Texas. It was great. Like, I just I got to kind of do that same thing where I got to work with college students, kind of talk to them about why you should go to law school, specifically why you should go to Nebraska long. Yeah, and kind of hype up the school. It was great I had. I loved the ladies in admissions at Nebraska. They were one of the reasons I chose that law school. And so it was great to kind of work with them. And it was very much like a safe kind of landing spot after the bar and all of that before I ended up at Hightower

Tracy Hightower-Henne: High Tariff

Joy Kathurima: Law.

Susan Reff: So. What we Tracy knew your sister, and that’s kind of how you heard about the job, I think, right?

Joy Kathurima: Yes. Yeah. So I didn’t know that Tara existed prior to my sister and Tracy are in a networking group, and I was looking for a practice job because, you know, I spent all this money on this degree and I wasn’t using it. And the admissions job was never going to be like a full time job. It was a contract position for for two years. So that was my plan was to be there for two years and then find a practice job. And so it was the same time that Hightower was looking for an attorney. One of your attorneys is going to be leaving. So it just kind of like happened that I only ended up having to be an admissions for a year.

Susan Reff: And the rest is history.

Joy Kathurima: The rest is history.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: You know, you always say that that you don’t like that saying me. Yeah, I’ve said that before. Yeah, because the rest isn’t history. The rest is the future

Joy Kathurima: And the present.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, yeah.

Susan Reff: It just sounded like a dumb thing to say. So besides handling divorce cases, what are some of the other things that you’re doing around here?

Joy Kathurima: Yeah. So I’m also doing estate planning. I’m working with Tasha learning how to do estate planning. I did some estate planning in law school through our civil clinic that we did estate planning for, specifically people over sixty five who are low income. So I have some experience with it. So Tasha is kind of helping me learn how to learn the ropes of it. So that way I can take on some estate planning clients of my own. And then I primarily do family law, including divorce and modification cases,

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Because to do estate planning, you don’t need to have an estate.

Joy Kathurima: Right. Exactly everyone. You do not have to have lots and lots of money to have an estate plan. Everyone should have that peace of mind of what is going to happen to your loved ones, things before they pass, and it’s helpful to have them help you plans that way. They know what’s going to be happening to their things. And it’s also a great way to build wealth for your family. And wealth doesn’t mean millions like life insurance policies. All of those things can provide a lot of safety nets for families, and I think that a lot of people think that you have to have millions to be estate planning in. That is not true at all.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Only billions.

Susan Reff: So when you joined our firm, you really gave me a run for money, my money as the plant lady here, because OK, so if you’ve not been in my office, I have, I don’t

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Know, a jungle.

Susan Reff: I have four or five plants in my office.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Whoa, you have like twelve.

Susan Reff: I have a lot of plants in my office.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I’m going to go count them. I’ll be right back

Susan Reff: And and we have a few plants like in the common spaces of our office. And then joy came and she was like, You know, my family, you know, we’ve always had plans. My mom or my dad is really into it. My sister’s into it, I’m into it. And then she shows up and she’s just not talking this cutesy little plant that you sit on the corner of your desk. Like some of mine, she is talking about these huge big giant pots. And I don’t know how many you have in your office, but you definitely have large plants.

Joy Kathurima: Yes, I have very big plants. So yeah, like Susan said, my dad has always had a green thumb and so in law school my first year, I was really, really sad. And so he’s like, Here’s some something to take care of. He’s like, it’ll help you feel better. And so he gave me my first plant and it was just in like a maybe like a six inch pot. It was a monstera, which at the time I was not deep into the plant fandom, so I didn’t know that monsters are a big deal in the plant world. And so my dad gives me this a cutting from his mature monstera. And now it’s in a I don’t even know how big 42 into 42 inch pie. It’s huge. My sister has a baby from his and we take side by side photos of how big they’ve grown. And I have. I don’t. I have quite a few plants. I also am rehabbing some plants. One of them has died. She’s not very happy.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, I think I gave it to you and it was dead, you know?

Joy Kathurima: And then there’s an I.V. that I’m rehabbing for Tara, one of our other attorneys, because I also have a humidifier in my office because I am serious about my plant love.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So, so joy was out of town for two work weeks, and I was like, Joy, do you need like anyone to help with your plans? And you were like, Nope. And then like, as soon as you got back to town, you were like, I’m going to the office. And it was like ten o’clock at night on a Saturday night or something. And I was like, Oh, she didn’t even want anyone to touch them either.

Joy Kathurima: No, I am very serious about my plan. Karen literally texted our group chat. I’m like, What’s the code to get in again? I have to check on my plans. And they were all fine. They all survived my vacation without me. But we have a lot of great windows in the office, so they are thriving.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Do you name them?

Joy Kathurima: So I had started naming them, but then I keep forgetting their. That Irish naval, so I don’t my sister’s named most of her plans and like she’ll refer to them as their names, and I’m just like,

Tracy Hightower-Henne: No, but I do name them. Yeah. Hello, my name

Joy Kathurima: Is yeah, my niece names makes name tags for her plants, so I should ever make some from mine. But I’ll talk to them and I like, wipe them down. When I water them, I wipe down their leaves and all of that. But I don’t name them, and I feel kind of bad because they deserve an identity.

Susan Reff: But I don’t need my plants either. That makes me better.

Joy Kathurima: It’s hard, and sometimes the name doesn’t fit.

Susan Reff: I’m not one of those like people name their car. Yes, and they name their

Joy Kathurima: Ok, I have named my car.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: What’s your car’s name?

Joy Kathurima: My car’s name is Huck. The Hunt.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Hyundai. Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. It’s a boy. Or is it?

Joy Kathurima: It’s I don’t know. I feel like all the things I own. Our girls always, but I don’t know. I just picked the name hug because I needed an alliterative name. Non gender. Yeah, yeah. And my last car was Latoya, the Toyota.

Susan Reff: Oh, that’s good.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, I also don’t think cars have gender, right?

Joy Kathurima: So it’s just a vehicle. It’s just a machine, but it’s personal because it’s like I drive her. Yeah, every day. So.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yes. Mm hmm. So when you came here to, I think you made it really clear to us that community service was something that is important to you. So tell us about that. What are those important things to you?

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, yeah. I think that often, particularly with this degree, people put on lawyers on a pedestal and look at them to be leaders of their community. And oftentimes that could be well deserved and well earned. Other times, sometimes it’s not. But I think that if there’s a way for me to give back with this education that I’ve received, I want to. So I do. The Rural Legal Aid has a divorce clinic that they do remotely for different people around Nebraska, so I do that twice a month. I also love, like I said, I love hanging out with kids. I think they’re so interesting. Like my niece is 16 and like hearing what goes on in her life is fascinating. So I’m also a mentor for with partnership for kids. This is going to be my first year doing that. And then I’m also on the Girls Guild for Girls Inc. So we help kind of support the Mentors for Girls Inc as well as the staff folks who work at Girls Inc.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: And you’re also doing some stuff with legal aid.

Joy Kathurima: Yes, that’s the legal aid divorce clinic.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Oh, yeah, yeah. And we know it also sometimes is the rural divorce clinic. Yes.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, yeah, because it primarily serves folks who are in rural counties because there’s not a lot of attorneys in rural Nebraska. I think last count, I think there’s like six or seven counties in Nebraska that just don’t have a single attorney that lives there.

Susan Reff: It’s the Rural Practice Initiative. Yes. Oh, initiative.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Will it ever stop being the initiative? Because that sounds like an initial type thing. I’m not in charge. I don’t know.

Susan Reff: I’m not. I don’t have. I plead the fifth. But I mean, like this. This problem with lawyers in rural areas is not new, but I think and I think it’s only getting worse because it’s been around since I started practicing law, that there’s lawyers, there’s places that there’s no lawyers, there’s places that they can’t fill, you know, jobs in the courthouse because there’s just not people that living in those small rural communities anymore. But that doesn’t mean that there’s not someone that needs an attorney for whatever they might need an attorney for.

Joy Kathurima: Exactly. Access to justice is always a big issue when you kind of and I mean, even here, it still is, even in Omaha and Lincoln. But I think when there’s no one even there to go to, it makes it that much harder.

Susan Reff: So the other thing that joy is way deep into is like pop culture.

Joy Kathurima: I am always on the internets in some way, whether that be Twitter, mainly Twitter and TikTok.

Susan Reff: But but if anybody needs to know what’s going on like with so-and-so and they’re like celebrity gossip, joy, it’s either joy or Aaron, right?

Tracy Hightower-Henne: We got it covered. Yeah, in our office.

Susan Reff: So do you have like, who are some of the people that you follow and like, kind of like look at on a regular basis P.A.?

Joy Kathurima: Oh, absolutely, I. My love for Beyonce knows no bounds. Knows no, except I love her if she ever hears this podcast. Beyonce. I love you. I was actually my dream job in law school. Torts professor asked us to write down on our note card on our first day of law school in her class, like what would be our dream legal job? And I wrote down, I’m like, I want to be a lawyer for Beyonce’s entertainment company for Parkwood Entertainment. I think that would be so this is a

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Temporary job, isn’t it? Boy, you’re just staying here until that job opens.

Joy Kathurima: I have no entertainment law experience. Nothing do I know about it? But I think that would be so cool to work for her also to know what her non disclosures look like because nobody knows what Beyonce is doing, ever. She just. Are op stuff, and it’s like explodes the internet, and I want to know how does she keep people from talking about it? How did she make two different albums? Drop them without people leaking anything like that in a day and age of social media is commendable, so I want to know how what does her legal team look like? That’s what I would. So she

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Could drop a new album tomorrow, and no one

Joy Kathurima: Knows. No one would know. That’s how she did her self-titled album. It literally came out. My sister and I were already going to a Beyonce concert that, like two days from then in St. Louis and then my roommate text me. She’s I think Beyonce had just dropped an album. I’m like, What are you talking about? There hasn’t been any chatter about that. Literally get on the internet and self-titled is just there. Just there. Wow. And so am I. I drove eight hours through a blizzard, the week of my finals week for college to a Beyonce concert, listening to her new album. And then I had to write a 12 page paper when I came back, and it was all worth it.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yes.

Susan Reff: Yeah, wow. Hmm. I didn’t know that you were such a Beyonce fan.

Joy Kathurima: Love her. I’ve been to three of her concerts. I wish I could have gone. I didn’t go to the Formation World Tour after she dropped Lemonade, and that will be one of my biggest regrets because it looked so good. It looks so good, everyone. The videos on the internet looked so good.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Does she do anything in Vegas?

Joy Kathurima: No, she’s not in Vegas. No, she I don’t think she’s at the stage in her career that she’s doing a residency.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Oh, yeah, that’s right. That’s Cher. That’s Cher material.

Joy Kathurima: Well, everyone is still hoping that Beyoncé. Yeah, we’ll drop another album and do another world tour once the pandemics are over. Open world pandemics ponderosa is are over. Then we can hopefully

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Panorama who else other than Beyonce?

Joy Kathurima: Celebrity wise, I don’t follow that many celebrities. I just I feel like I’m always on the internet, so I’m always know when things are happening. So it’s like, you know, whatever everything that was happening with the baby I was seeing, like the real time cancellation of all the festivals being like, No, no, no, no. Then I was like, OK. Or like, Kanye just dropped a video for his new album yesterday, and that’s been blowing up the internet. And I mean, Kanye is incredibly problematic as a person, but my beautiful, dark, twisted fantasy is still one of the best albums I’ve ever heard. So it’s one of those things where that was been was the chatter on Twitter. It was like, How do you separate the art from the artist? And people have done that with Kanye because he has enough of art to look at. And then people are like, DaBaby has not does not produce enough good art to separate his homophobia and transphobia from the artist. But people somehow can do that for Kanye because he has this whole, you know, all these albums that he’s released, his, you know, Yeezy line or whatever. So it’s like they can separate those two things.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Is that maybe what happened with Michael Jackson too? Mm hmm.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, yeah. I think if I mean, I think that’s just how pop

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Culture and maybe R.

Joy Kathurima: Kelly. Yeah. R. Kelly, I feel like he got his cancellation now. Yeah. And but people still like there’s some music that is so ingrained in the culture that it’s like, how do you remove those things that are so integral to how some people have celebrated with their families to this like monster of a person? It’s the same thing with like Bill Cosby. Like, I feel like for a lot of black families, The Cosby Show was so good like it was. We would watch it all the time. And now to see like, yeah, what happened with him? It’s like, OK, how? But then there’s also the people who have been apologist for the things that he’s done. So it really does make it hard to like, watch that show without feeling icky, right? So like all the interactions you’re now seeing, it played through a different lens and you’re like, OK, maybe I can’t separate the art from the artist because it’s just so infused with Bill Cosby as America’s dad and now Bill Cosby, the rapist. It’s like. Right? Very different things.

Susan Reff: So my step brother and I got in kind of a fight about this that he I was we were talking about Michael Jackson and like, how great is his music was and how long his career was and all of that. And we were talking about it. And, you know, he was like, I just can’t listen to it anymore. And, you know, I was like, I, I value that. I respect that. And then the other day, he posted something, and I’m not going to remember what it was, but he was saying that he was listening to someone’s music. And I was like, I think it was like Morrissey or somebody, and I’m like, What? Stop? Like, so Michael Jackson’s OK, like, you cut out Michael Jackson, but you haven’t cut out Morrissey. Mm hmm. And I don’t even remember if it was actually Morrissey. So I’m just using that as an example. But like, do you do that? Like if you find out, you know, the negative, I mean, like we can like develop our opinion about somebody and some in their music or their their craft, and then we find out who they really

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Are or opposing counsel.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, yeah. I think oftentimes, like the people who have been quote unquote cancelled, aren’t people that I was necessarily that deep into. Like I will say, I did go to a DaBaby concert. Right before the world shut down in March of 2020, when whose pinnacle bank we literally went for the song that he is featuring Megan Thee Stallion song that he’s featured on that played five minutes into his set and then we left and you. We paid all of that. And also it was not a good set. He just it was not great. So it’s like. But a lot of those people, it was like, I’m like, OK, well, I don’t listen to the baby’s music that much, so I don’t really care. Bill Cosby was a little bit harder, but it was also like, it was like, I can’t watch these things anymore without viewing it. But then I think there’s so much. There’s actually a podcast that I listen to that talks about this fantasy that specifically, how do you separate those two things? So it’s like, I love Beyonce, I love her. But it’s also like how to someone ethically become a billionaire in our in our world, right? Like, no one becomes a billionaire without exploiting someone. Beyonce is a billionaire. Rihanna just became a billionaire. It’s like, how to how do I separate those things from these artists that I love? I think it’s just the pull, the tension of humanity and what you do personally. Like, I love Beyonce. I still listen to her music. I bought her Ivy Park stuff when it dropped. I have contributed to her like billionaire status.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, and also she’s a billionaire, so she has an estate plan, right?

Joy Kathurima: That’s true. So maybe, yes, I would think so.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I think so. Yeah, for sure.

Joy Kathurima: And she has three kids.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Prince didn’t have one,

Joy Kathurima: Prince did not have a will or they never have

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Orleans. Then he was right under billions.

Joy Kathurima: So I think it’s I I think it’s a personal choice, obviously, but I think it’s one of those things that you collectively have to kind of decide. It’s the same thing with like Chick fil A, like you have to decide, are you going to support some company that you know where their funds go or are you not going to and then make that personal choice? And then it’s kind of like, I mind my business, like if someone else is going to, it’s like, OK, well, I personally won’t make those choices, but you do you

Susan Reff: Did you use the word diss fan ties or something like that?

Joy Kathurima: No. Wait, did

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I? No, I didn’t hear, OK.

Susan Reff: I thought, you said, I listen. I follow a

Joy Kathurima: Podcast. Oh, called Fan Tie. It’s called Fanti. Yeah. Ok.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So tell us what you like about working at Hightower, FLA.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, I love that it’s such a I don’t know if communal is the right word. I can’t think of the right. That sounds like a bathroom. Yeah, but it’s very collaborative, collaborative. It’s a very collaborative work atmosphere. I can the number of times I walk into another attorney’s office and I’m like, Hey, I have a quick question and explain my situation that’s going on. I feel like I do that to Tara because our offices are right beside each other at least three times a day. I’m like, Hey, Tara, do you have just

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Just a quick second? And then she’s like, Here’s a plant that you need to rehab.

Joy Kathurima: And so that’s one of my favorite things. Also, you know, my friend Deanna and I went to law school. I don’t know. I think Deanna will be introduced soon on the podcast, but I love being able to work with her from law school. One of my friends from law school is also going to be starting here soon, so it’s great to be able to see them more regularly as well. And it’s also, I think that the firm is so well respected. Every time I tell someone that I work at Hightower Arraf, they’re like, Oh my God, I love them, and I’m like, Yeah, you should. I also work there, so that means you love me. And so I think that that that part is really great, too.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I think it’s yeah, I think that’s really important that like Hightower, rough law is all of us. It’s not just Susan and Tracy. And so when people are like, I love them, it’s like, Yeah, you do all of

Joy Kathurima: Us very much, very much.

Susan Reff: Awesome, awesome. Good note to end on, yeah. Like why joy loves it here. So joy going forward, divorces in estate planning, right, are definitely cases that you’re going to be handling.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, and if someone wants help matchmaking? Hit me up for that, too. You’re going to hustle on the side. Yeah, we can maybe find you a new boo to love on post. Of course, I can help you set up your online dating profile. That part, I could very well.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I was watching something on Hulu, and is like all over ads right now, and they’re like Zoom dating. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know if I would have liked that. I liked the AOL Messenger when I was on it.

Susan Reff: So someone hires joy for their divorce. But, but but really, they just want her to match make for them when they’re done with their divorce.

Joy Kathurima: An added bonus.

Susan Reff: Good package. Awesome.

Announcer: It’s now time for your random Moment of nonsense on the Lady Lawyer League podcast.

Joy Kathurima: It’s like conversational than it is. Like, This is a script about me, like a bio reading.

Susan Reff: People are people don’t do well with that.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, and then you could talk about like working at the law school after graduation. Yeah. And how different that is to what you’re doing now? Yeah, OK.

Joy Kathurima: Oh, my, my sister is phone memories. It just came up when you had messaged her about applying me applying the work.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: You know, I remember that after the pool day last week, I was like, Yeah, that was like the best thing ever. I was like, I

Susan Reff: Almost tried to drink the microphone.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So are you recording? Did that get recorded? Let’s use that

Susan Reff: Weed. Aaron and Joey had a pop session before we started to loosen up a little, and

Joy Kathurima: That’s like we came up with a nonsense idea to do that. The is that your contact? What is that? No, it’s the rubber. Oh, it’s like what is sounds like? I was like Tracy. I was like, Are your eyes on that one?

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, just kidding. They’re all gone now.

Susan Reff: What do you call it, law nonsense or. Yeah, like following each episode with like like a quickie, like non-sense moment that he just recorded?

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Oh, I just rolled my eyes and caught like 10 times. And my eyes were hurting. Yes, I was like it was like, I can’t hula

All: Hoop, so I have to do my eyes at

Tracy Hightower-Henne: The judge or at the other person, at the other attorney. Have you ever rolled your eyes at the judge? Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure I have.

Susan Reff: No, because they’re too blind.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: But it was just like this position that like we tried to settle beforehand and and all of a sudden like in court, he’s like, Oh, we’ll stipulate to that. And I was like. That’s what I did in court, I was like,

Susan Reff: What is that? What is that called when you got an egg?

Tracy Hightower-Henne: I don’t know

Joy Kathurima: If there’s a word like that’s aspirated.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Sigh. Yeah, that that’d be one on the narration on your closed captioning. Yeah. Exasperated sigh. Jazz music is playing. Ok, ready.

All: So two quick notes of a really good job of the stories in the last episode. So just as many stories, personal stories. So if they asked you, you know, what was it like growing up?

Susan Reff: They’ll say it was fine.

All: Oh, great.

Joy Kathurima: Give us stories. Some elaboration. Ok.

Susan Reff: So, yeah, collaboration. Yeah.

All: I like to, you know, I’d like to get away to did it last episode of saying, So what’s new with you this week? Instead, just start talking about what’s new with you this week. So we’re going to get. Yeah, yeah. And then

Susan Reff: And then something really cool that’s coming up is this bear

Joy Kathurima: Ball.

All: Yeah, you just started talking about it. So like if if Tracy like to say you’re there’s a crack in your pool and it was the whole thing, you know, then you just jump in.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: So for me, I was like, You had a crack in your pool?

Susan Reff: Oh, I have something. I have something to say about it.

All: So they just jump in.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Not the not about my pool. I found CBD water in Montana, by the way. Best thing ever. I need to find it here.

Joy Kathurima: No, no. Because Montana, you have to be a Montana resident to buy anything with

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Thc in it. But it was CBD sparkling water in a can.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, they have CBD powder that you can order here. Well, remember that

Tracy Hightower-Henne: It was just like Lacroix with CBD, and I was like, That’s what I hear. Yeah, they have taste.

Joy Kathurima: I got a packet of CBD that you can put into

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Any it’s called daily trip.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, this one.

Susan Reff: Yeah, it’s like you can two days.

All: It’s a pretty good line.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, I mean, I have CBD oil drops, but I was like, I just want the water.

Susan Reff: Yeah, she’s like, I’ll go to the go to the CBD store, OK?

Joy Kathurima: Mm hmm.

Susan Reff: They have everything.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: All I know is

All: It’s like marijuana, but it’s not.

Susan Reff: It’s like Delta eight or something, Delta eight, because Delta nine is marijuana.

All: They did. Their Delta eight is not right, right?

Susan Reff: You can’t.

All: So it’s like all the all the things I hate about the reason I don’t smoke marijuana without any of the positives I it just tasted. It smelled.

Susan Reff: Oh, you didn’t like. It’s like decaf coffee.

Joy Kathurima: No, there’s no relaxation. No vibes. You’re like a little bit.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: What’s the purpose, Kat? Ok?

Susan Reff: But if you’re like a hardcore coffee drinker, yeah, a little bit isn’t going to touch you, right? Yeah. Where do you go, Matt? Where is it? Which is there more than one location? There’s a bunch. There’s eight. Yes.

All: Uh, see, when I go

To the door, there’s one on like a hundred.

All: And it used to be like a head shot, but they transitioned into more like health and

Susan Reff: Wellness with this stuff. Can you get your like protein powder there to be frozen there? I have CBD tea, but mine actually has THC in it. It’s so good.

Yeah, me, Colorado, I got it. So. Oh.

All: Oh, yeah, it worked for me for like five

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Hours and then she probably needed it.

All: Yeah, she’s

Joy Kathurima: She’s she’s relaxing, let her live, you

All: Know, she’s just laying there. She’s still here.

Susan Reff: She’s alive. Yeah, my mom had serious health concerns that were physical, and so she would use oil like THC oil because she couldn’t do an edible and like it affected her, like really fast. And so it was it was constantly like, How can we get my mom some more pot?

You know, the exact ratio per capsule.

Susan Reff: Yeah, that’s

My. You have spoken a lot about how much

Susan Reff: Did you care when you were younger?

Well, yeah, I was that bad. It was like it was a massive.

Susan Reff: Steve? Yeah. Oh, he does like energy, but it can also be referred to watch what’s the other one called?

That’s like, that’s for like pain and. Relaxed in the car, like in the couch, please, I have.

Susan Reff: Ok.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Are you still doing the 15 minutes

Susan Reff: Or can you? You didn’t today. Yeah. Oh, I miss it. Yeah.

All: All right. So make sure you like, make eye contact at 15 minutes with eye contact.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Yeah, not like a parking lot. Ok, joy. Ok. How do you say your last name again?

Susan Reff: How do you see your first name?

Joy Kathurima: Is Joe spelled with an eye just for fun?

Susan Reff: Yeah. Is it Joey?

All: Joey will be a good one.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Is it coy?

Joy Kathurima: We would get that one.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: We got

Susan Reff: We. I don’t know how you’d spell it, but.

Tracy Hightower-Henne: Ok. Are you doing? Are you doing the intro? I can. Do it, do it, do it. You go. Well, thanks for joining us today, joy. This was awesome to hear about your stories and learn more about you.

Susan Reff: I learned a lot and laughed a lot too.

Joy Kathurima: Yeah, thanks for having me. You all know, like Aaron said, y’all know where to find me.

Susan Reff: See you later.

Announcer: Thank you for listening to the lady. Sure to like and Subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts, if you would like to learn more about our firm, Hightower-Reff Law, please visit us At H r Law We’ll see you next week.

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